Blog author: jcouretas
by on Tuesday, January 22, 2008

Over at the OrthodoxNet.org blog, editor Chris Banescu had an entertaining exchange in the comment boxes with a writer who asserted that “capitalism can be just as infected with materialism and the concomitant need to tyrannize as communism.”

Here is Chris’ response:

Capitalism is really not an ideology. It simply describes reality, like mathematics and economics describe reality. It’s a word that explains how free human beings interact voluntarily with one another to exchange value and how they invest the excess of the fruits of their labors to produce more or gain more value. It is value and morally neutral.

You are positing your argument from the Marxist and leftist ideological point of view that made up this bogeyman they called “capitalism” as if it was some alien force dreamed up by rich to oppress the poor. That is a lie. You should know better than that.

On the other hand you are right that materialism is a moral failure, but that is the fault of the moral choice of individuals and groups, not the fault of capitalism. That’s like saying that it’s the fault of mathematics when someone does a wrong addition or multiplication, or the fault of accounting when someone embezzles money from their employer and writes down the incorrect cash register total.

When man deposits his money in a bank and requires interest payments, he is practicing capitalism!

When he buys food, clothing, furniture, medicine, etc.. from someone who produced it, he is practicing capitalism!

When he expects to be paid a fair salary for the work that he’s doing, he is practicing capitalism!

When he is the beneficiary of any retirement or pension fund, he is practicing capitalism!

When he buys property and hopes value will increase, he is practicing capitalism!

When he lends money to someone else and wants interest in return, he is practicing capitalism!

When he invents something new and unique and wants to sell it to someone else for a profit, he is practicing capitalism!

When he is the beneficiary of any government program providing social assistance, he directly benefits from others who practiced capitalism and created the profits the gov’t can now use and distribute to those in need!

When Churches and Synagogues get donations from people who first had to work and earn it, they are the beneficiaries of capitalism.

Even communists and socialists rely on capitalism to actually produce anything of value and generate the value and returns that fund and fuel their governments.


  • Wingnut

    Hi

    The only reason anyone is in need in the first place, is because the pyramid scheme called capitalism… put pricetags on all the survival goods, and high ones at that. (The pyramid scheme symbol is on the back of the USA one dollar bill.)

    So, capitalism actually CAUSES poverty. Outlaw money, titles of ownership, bills/demanding, and pricetags, and poverty goes away. So does pyramidding. Its pretty simple. Pyramid schemes work exactly the same as childhood farmyard pyramids of children. The kids on the bottom ALWAYS GET HURT from the weight of the world’s knees in their backs. Capitalism is easily seen as INFESTED with servitude, due to inequality. Seriously immoral.

    If we had ANY decent law enforcement in the USA or world, anyone involved with the free marketeers church-o-competing… would be doing time in federal prison for felony pyramidding. And lets not even think about what capitalists will meet in the afterlife. We see MANY MANY parents in the USA… (via pricetaggings)… forcing kids to join the free marketeer’s church-o-competing when they turn 18 years old… and that pretty much eliminates them from participation in the church-o-cooperating (Christianity/Socialism). What a cool crime, eh? AmWay (American Way) got the exclusive on the TYPE of trade coupons (money) accepted in the supply depots (stores)… and leverages slaves into action via that. Nice. Cute. The free marketeers WILL fall just like all pyramid schemes. Its just a matter of time, and I sure wish it was a matter of law. But servitude is legal here in the USA, and almost all parents condone and promote the church of competing… felony or not.

    Follow the U.S. military’s socialist ways… its a far better system and leaves no member without survival supplies. Military society knows how to operate without using cancererous tumors called “economies”. Time to rid the world of economies. They just cause pyramidding.

    Larry “Wingnut” Wendlandt
    MaStars – Mothers Against Stuff That Ain’t Right
    (anti-capitalism-ists)
    Bessemer MI USA

  • Glenn Sunshine

    Isn’t it interesting that the only countries in the world that have eliminated the kind of dying in the streets poverty that’s still in place in the developing world are the ones where free market principles have historically been the basis of the economy? And that every place where socialism has been attempted has been an economic, ecological, and human rights disaster area? Why do you think that is, Wingnut?

  • John Couretas

    From a July 18 review of “The Elephant and the Dragon” by Robyn Meredith on OpinionJournal.com:

    As Ms. Meredith shows, comprehensive, market-oriented reforms–China’s began in 1978, India’s in 1991–have sparked a new dynamism and remarkable economic growth. In the 1990s alone, more than 200 million people escaped poverty in the two countries, lifting the per-capita standard of living beyond the wildest dreams of previous generations. “We got more done for the poor by pursuing the competition agenda for a few years,” says one of India’s former finance ministers, “than we got done by pursuing a poverty agenda for decades.”

  • http://www.OrthodoxNet.com Reality Check

    It appears that Larry is living in fantasy land. I would recommend he carefully study (a) Economics 101, (b) Communism 101 (with emphasis on the 100 million that were killed and starved to death, and (c) Reality 101. I also suspect the “Wingnut” is a big hypocrite since he demands interest on his bank accounts, hordes savings for himself, and expects regular raises for hard work, all CAPITALISTIC principles he benefits from.

  • Wingnut

    Hi Glenn, thanks for the reply. There’s many reasons for that, and I’m glad you said “attempted” because never has a TRUE socialist society ever been COMPELTELY installed or achieved. Do you see the USA military society starving? No. That’s because its socialism is done MORE correctly than anywhere else I’ve seen, but even IT is not completed. One thing the military supply system does… is avoid luxuries and concentrate on survival supplies. Also, the rules/laws of an altruism-seeking society, must be contoured to socialism. AND, a whole generation must be taught about incentives and “team mankind” motivations… as well as how to avoid material addictions (food, motorsports, shopping, partying).

    Again, just follow the military methods, and we’d be AT LEAST STARTED on our way to a corruption-free and luxury-addiction-free system. ALL things would go into repositories, and there’d be no ownership… just like in the military. When all things, luxuries included, are in repositories, they can be checked-out fairly amongst ALL people. Rationing rules would happen at the repository… to keep the hoarders from gaining a foothold, as well as to teach about, and avoid, addictions to luxuries. Socialism is heavy on rules and moral considerations… and it leads to high-happiness, as seen in on-base housing on military bases. You see very little if any… competition for survival supplies within military society. NEVER would you see a military supply system fail to get survival goods to our starving fellow “team mankind” troops in Africa.

    Put everyone and everything on the same team, and the US/THEM wars between teams… stops. Competition would no longer be a sought trait. Cooperation and altruism is the theme of the century. Yes, I know it won’t be easy, but it still needs to be done, as this compete-o-thon and gouge-o-thon is not getting us anywhere but hating each other. Tug-o-wars do that. I and the other Christian socialist-like folk… have a better plan… and it doesn’t force the 18 yr old kids into joining a religious cult of competers and mercantilers. But I must say, Glenn, that your question is a damned fine one, and a very large team of investigators should/could find that answer… as it would sure help the conversion back to sanity and the abolishment of economies. Remember that a true socialism/commune’ism… uses no money, ownership, timecarding/billing, or working “for” others. A person only works WITH others… and voluntarily… and in full equality. Servitude would be illegal, as it should have been long ago. There IS a problem with “by committee” egalitarian decision making… in a “everyone has an equal and powerful say” systems. It will just need to be worked out. There DOES have to be rulers… just not a “ruling class”. Classifying folks using economic criteria…. would be gone and illegal.

    All the best!
    Wingnut

  • Wingnut

    Oh, by the way, just because a starving person CAN survive on the exhaust of Ferrari’s repeatedly passing, doesn’t mean its the right thing to do, or sane whatsoever. Take the pricetags off of survival supplies, and there IS NO POVERTY anymore. There will still be folks with luxuries that others don’t have…. due to the pyramidding. Just take the pricetags off-of the SURVIVAL goods please. The luxury seekers and sellers… can continue their trip to hell without messing with survival supplies, right? Its NOT “just a game” when the survival supplies are included in the lemonade standing (guard) game. Hoard and ration, hoard and ration, that’s the creed of the mercantiler. “Got AmWay certificates? If not, go away, starving person.” THAT… is just terrible policy in supply depots. Terrible. Rationing like that, in my opinion, will win a person an instant reservation for afterlife hell.

    Best Regards!
    Wingnut
    MaStars

  • Marc Vander Maas

    [i]never has a TRUE socialist society ever been COMPELTELY installed or achieved.[/i]

    Why is that, wingnut?

  • Wingnut

    haha. Hi Marc and other bloggers… thanks for the replies/debate. Marc, the cheap answer to your question would be… its because we didn’t try hard enough. And although that’s likely true, if I may attempt to be more specific…

    When classifying “things” via a CERTAIN criteria (which is yet to be fully determined)… things fall into one of two categories. NEED and WANT. Its also related to calling something a luxury, versus a “survival supply” or tool. Its really a pain in the butt… to determine wants versus needs, or luxuries versus necessities… but in the military, a team of “substantiation checkers” either authorizes a “thing” requistion form, or they don’t authorize it. The order is filled, or it isn’t. The guy who requisitions a dirt clod from supply… NEEDS a dirt clod, and for him to seek a requisition form for a diamond, is a waste. A guy who requisitions a diamond, NEEDS THE DIAMOND, and can do nothing with a dirt clod. The two requisition forms… diamond and dirt clod… are NOT money, and are of exact equal value, and neither requester seeks the other person’s requisition form. Seeing this? Requisition forms, for getting things from supply (and luxury) repositories… are used instead of money… and are handed-out like grass clippings and leafs. See how requisition forms, and money, are exactly the same, yet not? Its because MONEY… can obtain… things OTHER THAN needs. Money can requisition luxuries… and so money is seeked as if cocaine. Consumer cocaine. Shopping junkies. Motorsport addictions. SUGAR junkies. The USA is PACKED with all those… because of the free-wheeling luxury requisition form… called money, and the police-backed titles-of-ownership gotten therewith. If Earth-materials were custodianed instead of owned… it’d be a whole new ballgame. its really illegal to own Earth materials ANYWAY, as the previous owner was never consulted, nor was there pricetags on anything on the planet when mankind got here. Ownership over any Earth material or its constructions thereupon, is illegal by our very “own” ownership laws. We just won’t admit it.

    To try to get back on track, there is a perceived shortage in survival supplies. There is a DEFINITE shortage in luxuries. It is actually the AVAILABILITY of luxuries, that causes decadency-seekings that corrupt ruling bodies… who attempt to install socialism and commune-ism systems. The rulers can’t seem to “live AS the people” or “live WITH the people”. Perks and favoritism in policy-making happens, trinkets and plam greasings, secret clubs and coalitions, secrets kept from the general public by a country’s SPYING system… for the people’s own protect. Suspicions rise. Rulers and power wielders start taking actions ON BEHALF-OF “their people”, even though they don’t have a finger on any pulse. Lots of disorganization can happen in “by committee” things… but we have tools… like the fault tree software used for the NASA shuttle investigations. (egalitarian software – everyone can speak their mind and it gets weighed.)

    Temptation of the cocaine of the consumer… luxuries. When “rankings” happen, luxuries buy favoritism. Thus… all supplies, and luxuries, must go into repositories… to be checked-out equally by all. No ownership, only custodianship of mankind-owned items and supplies. Everyone is on the same team. Team World. Team World’s “policies” are scrutinized to the bloody hilt… constantly, and includes everyone’s concerns. Its a lot of work, but after all, money wranglers and marketers… will have nothing to do after we eliminate economies. Collecting the opinions of all the voices of the entire planet… would be a noble and honorable volunteer profession in our new pricetagless world.

    Yeah, I know I wandered all over hell on this post. Sorry. I’m a bit rushed at the moment. Thanks again for the replies and questions. I love ‘em!

    All the best!
    Wingnut
    MaStars

  • Marc Vander Maas

    [i] The rulers can’t seem to “live AS the people” or “live WITH the people”. [/i]

    Since you like questions so much, why don’t you explain this to us, wingnut. Why is it that [i]every[/i] time communism or socialism is tried, this happens?

  • Wingnut

    Marc, I just got done asnwering that. Its due to NOT putting all the supplies and luxuries… into repositories. I guess the cause… could be called elitism… and in a genuine socialist/Christian system, its illegal and enforced as so.

    Here’s a simple example. In capitalism, and thru his abuse of power, Bully Billy is empowered-to grab the entire platter of sloppy joes at the church playground, and run off into the woods with it. There, Bully Billy both gorges himself, and starts “requiring” (pricetagging) the OTHER children to do “services” for Bully Billy… in order to get a (un)fair share of community-bound sloppy joes. He hoards and rations. Instead of being a superhero of equality and doing policing for inequalities, Bully Billy used his power to gouge and exploit the other children. To capitalize. And this all happens because… we, as parents, nation, and world, allow, condone, and promote such illegal and immoral activity. And Capitalism does THAT because the cap cheerleaders have BS’d themselves about the goodness of such a servitudal keep-the-rich-rich sham. And, most Americans, or at least the folks who bought-into the competer’s church, refuse to investigate it or even talk about it. Addicts DO NOT LIKE to speak against, or scrutinize, their “juice” or its wisdom. You see VERY LITTLE talk-of “Is capitalism a pyramid scheme full of servitude?” ANYWHERE… not in media and not in daily hometown chatter. Americans, it seems, are yelling “Yay US, yay America” so loud and proud, that they refuse to question their mercantiler’s religion, and its self-lies. When America’s “measuring up” is an economic-criteria-ONLY rat-race, that happens. (tug-o-wars) When we QUIT measuring “success” and “opportunity” using ONLY economic criteria, and start seeing/researching how America “measures-up” on characteristics and traits OTHER THAN money a-counting, we will easily see how we have failed. We went after economic growth, and forsaked all other characteristics and traits that we COULD have been growing. America is a one-crop nation, and so, America has become ONE CROPPED NATION!

    Now lets hear others’ answers, including yours, Marc. Write write write, but not just questions.

    Bestest!
    Wingnut

  • Wingnut

    Someday I’ll even be able to pay attention enough… to properly use the nesting (hierarchy) of this fancy blog system, too. I promise!

    :)
    Wingnut

  • Marc Vander Maas

    Who controls the repositories? Who determines what is elitism? Who determines what is “enough”? And aren’t they subject to the same temptations and corruption that has managed to cause [i]every socialist system ever implemented to fail?[/i]

    I feel like I’m baiting a troll, but hey, I’m bored.

  • Wingnut

    “I feel like I’m baiting a troll, but hey, I’m bored.”

    Friendly. Thanks.

    Those are all good questions, and need to be determined. Like I said earlier, the criteria used in determining WHAT IS LUXURY/WANT and WHAT IS SUPPLY/NEED… is yet to be talked-of. Remember that ownership would go, so again, we only need enough sharables… to meet world needs. :)

    We would operate exactly like the USA military supply system. THEIR answers to your questions… are the best we have to date.

    I’m an anti-capitalism activist and debater… a bit of a Christian altruist, and a researcher of human relations. I may indeed be a troll. If you take a moment to explain to me what a troll is, I’d be able to see if such a label… is accurate. Do I NEED TO BE somehow labeled… in order to have discussions on a topic?

    Best Regards!
    Wingnut

  • Marc Vander Maas

    A troll, roughly defined: a commenter who engages in an online forum in which his opinion is hopelessly out of step with the majority and who has no hope of convincing anyone of the validity of his position, and yet continues to post in said forum simply to annoy the majority.

    With regard to your answers to my questions: good luck coming to a consensus on the whole issue of luxury/want/need and getting rid of ownership without having to resort to the use of force.

    Also, good luck finding incorruptible people to run your military-style supply system in a purely altruistic manner. If you can find a way to have a select group of individuals control the necessities of life for an entire society and [i]not[/i] go mad with power, you’re a better man than I. An aside: have you even begun to consider that the organizational structure and mission of a military force is fundamentally different from that of a free society? Why do you believe that you can simply impose the system designed for the strictly regimented military system on the more fluid and distinctly non-regimented larger society? Do you really believe that you can impose a military-style system society-wide without causing massive unrest and upheaval?

    You fancy yourself a debater, and yet your only response to Glenn Sunshine’s point about socialism invariably causing economic, environmental and social disaster is to trot out the tired old leftist trope that “it’s just because socialism hasn’t been implemented correctly.” You claim to be an altruist, and yet you support a system that has – just in the last century – inflicted poverty, want, and despair on entire societies and has racked up a body count well in excess of [i]one hundred million[/i] (Mao and Stalin alone accounted for nearly [i]120,000,000[/i] deaths.) It would seem to me that an honest person would recognize that the demonstrated danger of just trying to implement that perfect socialist system is so great as to make it not worth even trying.

    Meanwhile, (as pointed out above by Glenn Sunshine, John Couretas, and Reality Check), citizens of nations with capitalist economies generally enjoy more freedom, more security, more wealth and higher standards of living (even among the poor).

    The fact of the matter, Wingnut, is that your system only works in theory. When put to the test in the real world, with real people trying to make it work, it fails. You are indulging yourself in the fantasy that you have discovered the solution to the problems in human nature that guarantee the failure of socialism [i]every time[/i]. The only reason you can do this is because you live in a wealthy, democratic, capitalist system that affords you the time and resources to do so.

  • Dan VandeBunte

    Wingnut says, “so again, we only need enough sharables… to meet world needs”.

    It sounds like, and perhaps Marc would agree with me, you’re advocating world-wide Kindergarten. And not even good Kindergarten. Kindergarten where nothing is mine and nothing is yours. Those pencils your mommy bought for you. I think I’ll help myself. Since you seem to be against any sense of ownership, you can’t really object. Wouldn’t you agree that a pencil is an essential supply for passing Kindergarten?

    If all of these “sharables” were simply made available to all at no cost (if I understand your calls to remove ‘pricetags’ correctly), wouldn’t that create a *massive* surge in demand? I wonder if production would be able to keep up. If it could not keep up, then would there not be a *massive* shortage of these sharables? Doesn’t that bring us right back round again?

    While sharing may be virtuous and altruistic, it cannot be required of a free moral agent. The gift-giver must be *FREE* to give the gift or not give the gift. It’s not exactly sharing when the teacher *takes* it from you and gives it to someone else. You are no more virtuous or altruistic as a result of the exchange.

    Wingnut says, “When all things, luxuries included, are in repositories, they can be checked-out fairly amongst ALL people”.

    Who would be responsible for the general upkeep and maintenance of these luxuries? If every one can check out luxuries, what’s the motivation to take care of it while you have it checked out? You’re just going to return it when you’re done with it. Then it’s someone else’s problem. Instead of rental cars, we’d all have rental lifes. How drab.

  • Marc Vander Maas

    Good points, all. Wingnut’s problem is that he gets a bunch of fundamental things backwards. The law of supply and demand isn’t some part of a capitalist system imposed on nations by capitalists; no, it’s the other way around: capitalism exists and operates [i]under[/i] the law of supply and demand. You can take away the economic system and try something else, but the law still exists. Just pretending that it no longer applies doesn’t mean it no longer applies.

    Same thing with human nature – greed and corruption aren’t the end result of living under capitalism; rather, they are immutable characteristics of human nature, and in response systems of government and commerce have developed that take that fact into account. Unfortunately for Wingnut, socialist systems [i]don’t[/i] take that fact into account, which is a major reason why they invariably end up turning into horrifying messes.

  • Wingnut

    Hi Marc…thanks for the beefy reply, and the definition of troll. Lets see if I can address concerns.

    Marc says … “good luck coming to a consensus on the whole issue of luxury/want/need and getting rid of ownership without having to resort to the use of force.”

    Thanks for the wishes of luck… for that nasty categroizing endeavor. :) I think we’re going to need your help, so don’t wash your hands of it, Marc. :) Again, follow the military supply system “rules of luxury”. Its a good way to start. Their determinations of “what is luxury” is based upon SOME criteria, and its supply system hasn’t left TOO many people in wantings for luxuries. The troops in the military seem reasonably happy. Now if we could JUST define the word “reason”, right? Having a common recognized definition…. of words used as labels… is a problem for captialism, commune-ism, and all other isms.

    Marc says… “Why do you believe that you can simply impose the system designed for the strictly regimented military system on the more fluid and distinctly non-regimented larger society?”

    You/We already have capitalism, which IMPOSES the phenomenon called ownership… via being backed by police guns. (And it imposes pyramid scheme rat-racing, too) In capitalism, a person cannot simply go and retrieve supplies and tools. One MUST first obtain free marketeering coupons (slavehour certificates), so that one can satisfy free marketeering pricetags, in order to get a free marketeering title of ownership… for a needed/wanted thing/tool/supply. Its all backed by police guns. If you ask folks like me, who avoid capitalism as much as possible, and want nothing to do with it, there is currently a very imposing system, imposing on everything. The imposition of capitalism, will seem the far worse oppressor… once a person tries-on military all-on-same-team society. I’ve been there. I’ve seen the church-playground-like team comradery and altruism in military society… and I know its NOTHING LIKE the worry-all-the-time, constant-attacking-of-bills… seen in capitalism’s tug-o-war and servitude fest. Its very rare to see members of the same team… fight amongst themselves, in military society. In capitalism, that’s ALL they do. Yes, there is likely to be some “upheaval” when the new supply system fairness rules… go into affect. Folks will have to cope and deal, or do jailtime. Unfairness is illegal, just like in the military society. If someone intentionally trashes a checked-out, mankind-owned, possibly-in-high-demand… ITEM or SUPPLY, then that person gets an ass-chew and a little remedial training in “Loving Team Mankind’s Supply System”. Like I said way back, rules and laws must be contoured to fit the society. Just think “nun-with-a-gun” on every corner… even though such Fairness Officers are more storyteller and teacher, than cop. Fairness is SUPER IMPORTANT in that type of society. So is mentorship and custodianing. Custodianing (caring-for and watching the demands and levels-of) a world-used supply, is bigtime noble and world-helping.

    And yes, Marc, it is supposedly true that SOMETHING labeled as “socialism” and something labeled as “communism” once got a bad reputation and did some unfair things on the planet. Lets find a way to do it better, not just throw in the towel on Christian-like supply systems. I will ALWAYS fight for fairness in supply/wellbeing systems. I have to… no matter the blockades.

    Marc says… “The fact of the matter, Wingnut, is that your system only works in theory. When put to the test in the real world, with real people trying to make it work, it fails. You are indulging yourself in the fantasy that you have discovered the solution to the problems in human nature that guarantee the failure of socialism every time.”

    No, that’s not the fact of the matter, Marc, but thanks for playing. The U.S. Air Force has such a socialist system working quite well for them… all you have to do is notice it… and then copy it for civilian land. The capitalists MUST stop fighting over stuff amongst themselves. Tug-o-warring just will not be able to continue. If we have to treat the caps like children, (in kindergarten) and TAKE AWAY the tugged-over items until the toybox combatants can learn to stop fighting over it, then we will. We socialists will put all the capitalism-condoners in federal prison. Watch us. Keep it up… with the pyramids. If the Christians/Socialists don’t smack that imperialism system to the ground, God might. Its getting rather gruesome in mercantiler land, as you can well see. Servitude is rampant.

    To sum, socialism is working fine in the USA military at this time. We can either ignore that fact, or learn from its wisdom. The change WILL come. It has to. Will we be ready with the answer as-to WHAT to change it TO? Will it be fair and thus Christian? Maybe we’re headed for tug-o-warring 2, (along with a repeat of all this inequality unhappiness). Again, though, a socialism is seen to be working fine… on the planet. Its just not being used to run a nation. It runs a smaller-than-nation team, called the U.S. military. And it has lots of rules of conduct. The USA Library System is also an operating socialism, and a very successful one.

    I ran out of debate energy for this one. I’m not feeling overly well today, but I’ll try to write again soon, and address some unaddressed stuff. Welcome, Dan! We’ll talk. :)

    Best Wishes!
    Wingnut
    AC

  • Dan

    Wingnut says, “Welcome, Dan! We’ll talk. :)”.

    Save your energy. I don’t foresee any set of circumstances that would make me even the slightest bit receptive to the idea of going to some sort of world-wide Kindergarten regime. School for me got better the further away from Kindergarten I got.

    You’re just wrong.

    “Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. You’re wrong.” – Dr. Cox, [Scrubs]

  • Marc Vander Maas

    Fabulous. You still fail to address the question of who exactly will control everything and how they will avoid becoming corrupted in spite of the fact that they will have ENORMOUS POWER. And in order to ensure that everyone plays nice you’ll have “nuns with a gun” on every corner, “mentoring” and “custodianing” for those who maintain the silly belief that they should be free to engage in commerce, and for those (like me) who still strongly disagree with you, it’s Federal Prison! Nice little police state you’ve got going there, Wingnut! I look forward to living under your suffocating, oppressive (and yet somehow “Christian”) bootheel! Honestly, I don’t think you even need to impose this system for it to get a bad reputation; your words alone have done a swell job of that already.

    In the meantime, while we all anxiously await your imposition of martial culture on a free society, why don’t you head on off and enlist! It seems the best solution for the interim to ensure that you remain reasonably happy in a system that works for you. And we’ll all benefit because you’ll have less time to troll.

  • Wingnut

    “Fabulous. You still fail to address the question of who exactly will control everything and how they will avoid becoming corrupted in spite of the fact that they will have ENORMOUS POWER.”

    Government by the people, makes the laws in social society. Currently, with imperialisms like capitalism, folks only vote for WHICH DICTATOR. In communism/community, we vote on everything… and that’s AFTER we are each offered plenty of research time on the far-reaching ramifications of a given issue. Someone else will need to figure out how to do “government by the people” as I’m really busy busting an illegal pyramid scheme caused by folks cheerleading for “economies” (a tallying and servitude system).

    “And in order to ensure that everyone plays nice you’ll have “nuns with a gun” on every corner, “mentoring” and “custodianing” for those who maintain the silly belief that they should be free to engage in commerce, and for those (like me) who still strongly disagree with you, it’s Federal Prison!
    Nice little police state you’ve got going there, Wingnut!

    No, not quite right. To correct and be detailed so you can’t pounce like a mad dog anymore… its federal prison for those who condone and promote pyramid shemes (volunteer joiners). Force-ins to capitalism, will probably need to be forgiven, even though they showed a severe inability to “think before you join things”. Fortunately, stupidity in joining pyramid schemes… is common, and we don’t have enough room in the jails.

    In Christian socialism, if anyone would ever want to try it, prisons are more schools than they are confinements. Prisons under socialism… are just like church playgrounds. “Here’s how you damaged Team Mankind with that action. Understand? Good, no go back out there and create mankind-helping things.” (A much gentler punishment system. Folks are less tense and duressed, under socialism)

    “I look forward to living under your suffocating, oppressive (and yet somehow “Christian”) bootheel! Honestly, I don’t think you even need to impose this system for it to get a bad reputation; your words alone have done a swell job of that already.”

    Just examine the amount of “religion forcing” and “way of life forcing” the pyramid scheme is doing, currently. Start collecting up the ways. it won’t take long before you have a truckload.

    “In the meantime, while we all anxiously await your imposition of martial culture on a free society, why don’t you head on off and enlist! It seems the best solution for the interim to ensure that you remain reasonably happy in a system that works for you. And we’ll all benefit because you’ll have less time to troll.”

    Friendly! Thanks! Such warmth! 50 years old, is a bit late to re-enlist. I was active duty U.S. Air Force from 1976 to 1985. I had to leave team-”take care of each other and NEVER short someone on survival supplies”… and bust the illegal pyramid scheme of servitude (ordering) going-on with the tug-o-warring children. Ever notice how often the word “order” is used in capitalism? OH MY GOD! Did anyone ORDER a burger at a fast food joint recently? Did you ORDER those slavecorp folks into action, OR ELSE?? Any extortion seen there? pffft. Servitude fest!!! Yikes!

    Ok, have we fended-off maddog Marc? Man, its difficult to stay on the subject of alternative survival systems… with all this personal gravel being thown. Sorry if I made ya’ll angry. I’m not trying-to. Its just time for capitalism junkies to leave behind there cocaine, for wisdom and fairness.

    Wingnut
    AC

  • Marc Vander Maas

    You are hilarious, my friend. Prisons are [url=http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/]nicer[/url] under [url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E07EED61230F935A15750C0A9629C8B63"]socialism[/url]? Folks are “[url=http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/famine.html]less tensed and duressed[/url] under socialism”?

    Oh, that’s right. None of those events occurred under socialist systems because no one has ever managed to establish a “true” socialist system blah blah blah.

  • Wingnut

    Hi gang! Sorry for delays. Let me try to tackle these comments by Dan.

    “you’re advocating world-wide Kindergarten.”

    Yep, in a way, correct. A different set of guidelines and ethics… dictated more by religion than by economics or government. If our current government had more religious influence and less capitalism influence… it would work fine. But currently, economic (cancer) growth is well more sought… than any other American trait or characteristic… that COULD be grown. The terms “forward-moving” and “growth” are strictly biased toward “economic” these days, and never are morals, intelligence, efficiency, equality… considered growables. The caps compete… with other nations and each other… over AmWay pyramid scheme coupons and titles of ownership… which religions don’t honor. Religions generally say “GOD owns everything, not man.” But yes, strict fairness rules will go into affect… with socialism, commun’ism, and ANY super-fairness system. Its church playground. ANY hoarding, corruption, servitude, rationing, or any other inequality… will get taken care-of PRONTO!

    “Kindergarten where nothing is mine and nothing is yours. Those pencils your mommy bought for you. I think I’ll help myself. Since you seem to be against any sense of ownership, you can’t really object. Wouldn’t you agree that a pencil is an essential supply for passing Kindergarten?”

    Well wasn’t that a circular trip around a racetrack in your own head! Yep, its mankind’s pencil. Fascinating! Now get it into the hands of the child who needs it, and stop playing games. Simple.

    “If all of these “sharables” were simply made available to all at no cost (if I understand your calls to remove ‘pricetags’ correctly), wouldn’t that create a massive surge in demand?

    Hoarding? Likely.

    “I wonder if production would be able to keep up. If it could not keep up, then would there not be a massive shortage of these sharables?”

    Will you work on shortages… for ‘team mankind’… out of goodness of your heart… and getting a good name?

    “Doesn’t that bring us right back round again?”

    Yep, supply and demand works exactly the same for military-like supply systems, as any other supply system. Keep enough in stock to meet usage numbers. You know THAT much about inventory control, one would think.

    A GOOD person needs to keep a close-eye on “World Needs TV” and go to work voluntarily on mankind survival projects such as “Team FOOD”. No wages, just team colors and pride and a person’s good name. and enjoyment working WITH others. Anyone who works hard… on highly-critical survival-supply shortages… is a hero. LOTS of TV cameras will follow “Team Critical” uniform wearers… for they are heroes… and mentors for our children. Its a different world… we just need to build it. Follow the military. Go talk to the spouses of servicefolk, who live in on-base housing (military neighborhoods). Ask them if they feel like they are in kindergarten. Bet not. Its a loving situation. No robbery, lots of sharing and visiting… very commune… no tug-o-warring over survival supplies. All smiles… even without luxuries. I call it “treehouse teaming”… where dads all get together to build one fantastic treehouse for the neighborhood kids… and have a blast… without wages, makin’ “the good ol’ days”. When we make our workplaces more like carnivals… live bands, food stands, theater, World Needs TV cameras everywhere… then we are on our way to excellent treehouse teaming. A person doesn’t HAVE TO go to work. A person instead GETS TO go to work. Its a pleasure… and the whole town is there… kids too. Workplaces are like barn-raisings… celebrating top-notch productivity with no worker stress. Bingo.

    “While sharing may be virtuous and altruistic, it cannot be required of a free moral agent.”

    Unless its the law.

    “The gift-giver must be FREE to give the gift or not give the gift.”

    No ownership, so the only gift giving will be service to mankind.

    “Who would be responsible for the general upkeep and maintenance of these luxuries?”

    If YOU were a volunteer WITH “Team Learjet” (ie. if YOU wore ‘team learjet’ colors on your uniform), then YOU would be one of the custodians at/with the Learjet repository. Its a noble and honorable position… folks would respect you for wearing those team colors… and you’d get a good name in your world.

    “If every one can check out luxuries, what’s the motivation to take care of it while you have it checked out? You’re just going to return it when you’re done with it. Then it’s someone else’s problem.”

    That’s not how a person gets a good name. Human nature would lead one to take good care of it… for the sake of team mankind. ‘for the sake’. hmmm. Right! Don’t FORSAKE team mankind. In fact, generally speaking, “forsaking” (not giving a crap) would be HIGHLY discouraged by parents and churches. Good call. Forsaking… is a terrible thing.

    “Instead of rental cars, we’d all have rental lifes. How drab.”

    I actually can read between the lines on that comment. It comes to be found, in supply systems like that seen in the U.S. military… that when a person checks out a “standard” new car from the car repository… it is best to allow that family to use that car continuously until the car is deemed by motorpool as being NRTS (inserviceable). I THINK, PERSONALLY, that during the life of that vehicle checkout, each family may “expressorize” that vehicle in any artsy or political way they choose. Other supply items will have a “go ahead and personalize it” allowance as well, but NEVER will inequality be allowed. Also, never will an automobile… which has been adorned with birdseed art, be allowed to exist… as long as there are still starving birds somewhere on the planet. Or, hmmm, something like that, anyway. :)))

    Bestest!
    Wing
    pincushion

  • Marc Vander Maas

    Wingnut: [i]A GOOD person needs to keep a close-eye on “World Needs TV”…[/i]

    Apostle Paul: [i]As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;[b] there is none that doeth good, no, not one.[/b][/i]

    I ask [i]again[/i]: where are you going to find the incorruptable public servants to run your totalitarian police state?

  • Glenn Sunshine

    The economic system that supports the U.S. military is based on capitalism and it wouldn’t work without it. Who produces the goods that the military redistributes? Should we follow Trotsky and militarize production? Do you think the amount of freedom people voluntarily give up when they join the military is a price we should demand from everyone, including for example not criticizing U.S. policy?

  • Wingnut

    Marc, I ask YOU again… when money, ownership, favoritism, and all other empower-one-over-another crap is illegal, and backed by police and church laws and prisons… what IS there to be corrupted-WITH? How is any person going to get empowerment over another… when its watched-for so closely in an equality-seeking nation/world? Without money and rankings, the only other way to control others… is physical force, and we’ve already got THAT outlawed and somewhat managed… outside the policing orgs. Once a nation removes the tools of corruption (money and ownership), corruption will have difficulty happening… especially if most of us GIVE A CRAP about things, and quit forsaking.

    It WAS nice to see you call me a friend in #20, though. Maybe we can all quit shooting the messenger for the message, eh? I think you’re more of a troll than I could EVER be, Marc. You troll for things you can pounce-on. Don’t let it bother you… pouncing is perfectly normal (herd-done).

    Wingnut
    AC

  • Marc Vander Maas

    [i]Marc, I ask YOU again… when money, ownership, favoritism, and all other empower-one-over-another crap is illegal, and backed by police and church laws and prisons… what IS there to be corrupted-WITH?[/i]

    Answer – Human nature is corrupt to begin with, Wingnut. It’s not money and ownership that corrupt us. We’re corrupt anyway, right from the start. Read Romans. Your refusal to acknowledge that fundamental truth of Christianity allows you to cling to your ridiculous, pollyannasih notion that once we get rid of all of our stuff, everybody will share and play nice.

    I bid you farewell, Wingnut. This discussion long ago grew tiresome, and I wish you well as you chase your fairies and rainbows. Just go do it somewhere else from now on.

  • Wingnut

    Um, no. Corruption is not human nature, its a learned trait. Kids don’t gouge each other financially until they are taught how-to. Kids know NOTHING about mercantiling when born. Swing and a miss. And I’ll be posting when, where, and how I choose-to, controller wannabes.

    I encourage other posters to continue discussing, especially those who stay on subject and have open and non-angstful minds and attitudes. We have totally out-of-control inflation going-on, and we need to find systems that can stop it…. and soon.

    Wingnut
    Anti-Cap/World Problem Researcher
    Michigan